TypoLad ([info]typolad) wrote,
@ 2006-01-06 05:53:00
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LoSHFS: You Tell Me:
What do you call it when you put a Native American girl in a skimpy fringed outfit and give her the power of “super-tracking”?

Would you call that tokenism?



Oh Dawny-baby, don’t be that way!

It is Jim MacQuarrie’s opinion that there are several 40 year old men with a Native American fetish thanks to LoSH.

Here’s a close up -



Why is “Gypsys Tramps & Thieves” running through my head now?

Oh and for the record? Her outfits only get worse:


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[info]jokergirl
2006-01-06 12:40 pm UTC (link)
Last picture doesn't work for me.

;)

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(Anonymous)
2006-01-06 01:17 pm UTC (link)
yah...first one is *far* hotter.

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Be careful where you stomp around
[info]starhavenite
2006-01-07 11:36 pm UTC (link)
There's more beneath the surface for any interest. And if you don't like her look, just say so.

I'm tired of the corkscrew archness of pages like this that not only criticize, but deride, someone else's interests. (And I know that I'm playing into your hands, as with any such playground ass back to the second grade, but I don't really care any more.)

Dawnstar had far more abilities in her portrayal, including being able to travel at about 300,000 times the speed of light (32 light-years per hour), as well as close-order space combat skills. She wasn't as well-limned as many other Legionnaires, true enough, but she wasn't one-dimensional, either.

Go to this thread at LegionWorld.net and take a look at many other stylings of Dawnstar, from professional and fan artists, many of exquisite beauty that go beyond the line art of the comics page.

Take a look at this personal photomanip. A lot of us (yes, I'm 40something, deal with it) find resonance in this. I've heard many Native Americans say they're fascinated about and proud of Dawnstar as a character. For instance, Legion '80s artist Steve Lightle (larger version of this commissioned art here):

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Re: Be careful where you stomp around
(Anonymous)
2006-01-08 03:08 am UTC (link)
And if you don't like her look, just say so.

Well, to be fair, I think he did say so. He was pretty explicit about it. I don't see anything in this blog entry that "derides" anyone's interests, unless your interest is having a token NA in the Legion.

That really takes care of the rest of your post, Greybird, except for this bit: "...tired of the corkscrew archness of pages like this..."

Come on now, no way did you not know that people would roll their eyes at that phrase!

-Necktie

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Re: Be careful where you stomp around
[info]typolad
2006-01-08 03:53 am UTC (link)
Wow.

Okay, first things first - I'm not "deriding someone else's interests". That's not the goal of this blog. If I didn't enjoy comic books, I wouldn't be spending my free time reading entire runs of them, would I? I love comic book, especially the Legion. I not only read them, I write them. I've been paid to do so, in fact. I embrace everything about comics.

That includes the occasional moments of silliness. I love it. I love that in comics, sidekicks exist. I love that millionaire industrialists can parade around in suits of armor and no one notices. I love that an alien kid with abilities that are the norm for his own race is considered a "superhero".

But I still can acknowledge that yes, it's silly.

The point of this blog is to point out panels and covers that make me go 'What WERE they thinking"? I firmly feel that way about Dawnstar, particularly her early appearances. She's not a "bad" character, but she frankly reeks of tokenism. Her costume is found offensive by many Native Americans I have spoken with as is her basic powerset.

But that's how I feel. You don't have to agree with me. I'm not setting out to say 'THIS IS WHY DAWNSTAR IS SILLY!". Rather, I'm saying "Hey, do you think Dawnstar was a serious attempt at creating a Native American character, or a ham-handed token?" You decide.

Oh and most of the people here know to take me with a grain of salt, if not a salt-lick. It helps.

So does having an actual, you know, sense of humor.

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Re: Be careful where you stomp around
(Anonymous)
2006-01-08 04:31 am UTC (link)
He Really Doesn't. Trust Me.

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Re: Be careful where you stomp around
(Anonymous)
2006-01-08 10:53 am UTC (link)
No need to explain yourself to him, typolad. His fetish with Dawnstar has made him uber-protective of the character, ad nauseum ad infinitum. "Be careful where you stomp around." Pfft. He'll type up another reactionary piece once he reads your reply. Some things never change.

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No, he won't
[info]starhavenite
2006-01-09 09:09 am UTC (link)
Though he does feel that "Why don't you have a sense of humor?" is used far too freely, after the fact, as an excuse by way of reply.

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By the way ...
[info]starhavenite
2006-01-09 09:10 am UTC (link)
I sign my bricks when I throw them.

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Re: Be careful where you stomp around
(Anonymous)
2006-01-09 02:35 pm UTC (link)
"Dawnstar had far more abilities in her portrayal, including being able to travel at about 300,000 times the speed of light (32 light-years per hour), as well as close-order space combat skills. She wasn't as well-limned as many other Legionnaires, true enough, but she wasn't one-dimensional, either."

You pretty up her flight speed and ability to survive in space so that she's not outclassed by a mere flight ring, you pretty up her ability to fight in space so she's not clobbered easily, you give her wings to give her a nature connnection while making her exotic, you give her tracking abilities since, y'know, you don't want to play up a stereotype, and you put her in a sexy, fringed outfit to set the fanboys a-drooling... Nope, doesn't smack of tokenism at all.

- Field of Green

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Not inaccurate
[info]starhavenite
2006-01-09 06:52 pm UTC (link)
I didn't "pretty up" anything. All attributes that I mentioned above were described for Dawnstar as part of published Legion works. Including the two (pre-TMK) Mayfair Games guidebooks to the Legion's components of the DC Heroes RPG, which were vetted and partially written by "LSH" writer Paul Levitz.

Mike Grell (abetted by successor James Sherman) created her appearance, with an admiration for such culture, not out of any motive of "tokenism." (See Glen Cadigan's Legion Companion interview.)

If you're this determined to see a "token" and be this derogatory, I can't stop you. That doesn't make either choice accurate or fair.

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[info]archyduke
2006-01-08 07:11 pm UTC (link)
So, uh. Why does she have wings?

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[info]starhavenite
2006-01-09 06:57 pm UTC (link)
The backstory for Dawnstar (see "Superboy and the LSH" 240 and the Mayfair Games material mentioned above) had Native Americans emigrating to Starhaven, a world near the galactic core, in the 2200s. They chose to gain wings that were genetically engineered (Levitz and others used "mutated," which wasn't really precise).

Selective genetics were said to have given Dawnstar her intense focus and tracking abilities, as well as the capability for FTL space travel. She wasn't shown as moving air in order to fly, which would have been both impossible in physiology and useless in space. (Fan theorizing has had the wings shaping energy flows.)

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(Anonymous)
2006-01-09 10:00 pm UTC (link)
It's posts like this that make me think adults shouldn't read superhero comics.

She has wings because it looks cool. She's native american because some of the writers and artists finally got embarrassed by how lily-white the Legion was. She wears a stereotypical buckskin outfit because those same writers and artists were at the time working in an extremely simplistic medium with extremely limited capabilities and stringent editorial requirements. She has big boobs and cleavage down to there because that's what Grell wanted to draw.

If you're over 12 and obsessing about continuity and backstory and "scientific" explanations for silly superhuman powers in a comic that was written for children some 30 years ago, I can't help you. You might just as well dream up energy-flow theories to explain why Peter Pan can fly. Or you could just accept that its escapist fantasy and enjoy it.

In any case, leaping to Dawnstar's defense as you do here just kind of makes you look the way you've been described: a bit humorless and having a Dawnstar fetish.

Some people think she's silly and a token character. Some even enjoy that about her. Your mileage may vary. Chill. It's all good.

MacQ.

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(Anonymous)
2006-01-10 01:34 am UTC (link)
Well said, MacQ. At the end of the day, IT'S JUST A FUCKING COMIC BOOK.

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(Anonymous)
2006-01-10 01:35 am UTC (link)
I'm sorry, was I shouting just now? :-)

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[info]starhavenite
2006-01-10 03:27 am UTC (link)
I was answering someone's question. And, earlier, bringing up some source material, such as Grell's interview. Which, naturally, is promptly dismissed because you don't like it. I've come to expect that attitude from kids in the schoolyard, who are all too common on the Net, however many decades and paunches most have.

Of course it's all a fictional creation. This interest in its details is no more an "obsession," as such, than liking Ian Fleming's creations enough to pipe up while watching "Jeopardy!" (as I am, right now, in the background) to say that Joseph Wiseman played Doctor No.

I'd hardly call such a putdown "chilling out" on your part. Try practicing what you preach, please. I've encountered many who apparently live to put down any such strong interest, and to gladly abet those who tear down one that's enjoyed by others. Passions about finding some fictional interest that they don't share seem to bug them. If you find this hitting too close to home, let the shroud fit.

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[info]typolad
2006-01-10 05:02 am UTC (link)
Damnit starhavenite, you got me. The entire purpose of this blog is to mock your childhood.

Oh wait, no it isn't. Oh wait, you're not a child either. You're a grown man. A grown man with a borderline disturbing obsession with a fictional character. So much so that you feel the need to defend her honor, even though she has no honor to defend.

Comics are great and wonderful literature. Like I said above, I get paid to write them on occasion. However, like any escapist literature, the trick is to be able to get lost in the work and then return to the real world.

You seem to be missing that key last step.

In the real world, real people are dying and you've got your knickers in a twist about a joke at a comic character's expense.

I ask you, who's the immature one?

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(Anonymous)
2006-01-10 03:33 pm UTC (link)
+1 to typolad. It's sad the other guy doesn't know he should really be in therapy. Oh well.

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I don't get it Mort's
(Anonymous)
2006-01-11 06:00 pm UTC (link)
You ASKED a question and this guy took the time to make an intelligent and supported answer and now he's getting shit from everyone? I know this blog thing is done in fun but if you are going to ask a serious question don't get freaked out when you get a serious answer.

And let's step back a second. The guy has an interest in the character and connection for some reason. So far I haven't seen him display anything and creepier than most of the rest of us that have oodles of long boxes filled with funny books. Some of us even have some of that early IMAGE shit! (Admit it, fanboys!)

Seriously, I know sometimes it's fun to poke the bear and all, but I think this is an overkill pile on.

Shade

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Re: I don't get it Mort's
(Anonymous)
2006-01-11 08:09 pm UTC (link)
The photomanip creeped me out.

MacQ.

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Re: I don't get it Mort's
(Anonymous)
2006-01-12 12:13 am UTC (link)
Well, personally, the photomanip made me laugh out loud. I'm sorry, starhavenite, I can't help it.

But Shade's right, enough piling on already. That goes for me, too.

As the saying goes, "It takes all kinds to make a world."

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(Anonymous)
2006-01-10 08:22 pm UTC (link)
Dude, when you repeatedly refer to a cartoon character as your sister, you invite comments. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

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(Anonymous)
2006-01-11 09:50 pm UTC (link)
When did I say I didn't like the Grell interview? In fact, why not show me where your comment and mine are mutually exclusive?

You said Grell created Dawnstar out of admiration for native american culture (which is sort of like admiring european culture; there are huge differences between Spain and Ireland, just as there are huge differences between, say the apache and cherokee nations, but what the hell, let's lump 'em together), and I said she came about because the writers and artists were embarrassed by how lily-white the Legion was. Given that Tyroc appeared about the same time, and Karate Kid suddenly became half-asian, I think it's a fair bet that both statements are true.

Anyway, an interest in the details of a character or book is one thing. Amassing thousands of scans of a character and commissioning a pile of illustrations of her and building internet shrines to her and referrign to her as your sister and creating an entire fictional family history for yourself and creating fake photos of yourself with wings and patrolling the internet looking for people insulting your heroine so you can challenge their slights to her honor, well... that kinda starts looking like obsession to me. your mileage may vary.

MacQ.

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MacQ's last paragraph
(Anonymous)
2006-01-11 10:23 pm UTC (link)
I stand corrected. I didn't go to Legion World and read all that other stuff.

Still, while personally I think that is all a bit....much, I still don't like the pile on when all he originally did was answer the question posed.

Shade

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Re: MacQ's last paragraph
(Anonymous)
2006-01-13 02:53 am UTC (link)
You're forgetting about the part where he accuses Typo of using "schoolyard" tactics (and I think it's just as important that he felt that Typo did something so heinous, as to deserve an accusation at all).

His original post screams two things at full volume:

1. "I am extremely obsessed and defensive about this character. Anything short of absolute praise will elicit an angry response from me."

2. "I do not understand the point of this blog."

As far as I know, this place has ALWAYS been about making fun of silly comic books. Anyone who reads it knows that. But this guy probably did a search on Dawnstar and came upon the entry, wherein he proceeded to stomp and whine.

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Re: MacQ's last paragraph
(Anonymous)
2006-01-13 02:54 am UTC (link)
Thats from me, by the way.

-Apodaca

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Awesome
[info]erechoveraker
2006-01-16 09:30 pm UTC (link)
I'm breaking out the golfclap for this thread!

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